forum.mormonentum.de – Das Exmo-Diskussionsforum

Das Exmo-Diskussionsforum

Beitrag 1 von 3
zum Thema Die "freie" Entscheidung

Seite erstellt am 25.4.24 um 23:42 Uhr

der Beitrag:

Verfasser: James

Datum: Freitag, den 4. Mai 2001, um 6:26 Uhr

Betrifft: Die "freie" Entscheidung

Laut Deseret News vom Mittwoch, dÃ¼rfen die Mormonen mal wieder Namen aus ihrer "genealogischen Datenbank" lÃ¶schen. Nachdem sich das jÃ¼dische Simon Wiesenthal Center sich beschwert hat, werden mehr als 200 Namen bekannter Juden gelÃ¶scht. FÃ¼r diese wurden die sog. mormonischen Tempelriten vollzogen. Es wurde weder belegt, daÃŸ diese irgendwelche verwandschaftlichen BezÃ¼ge zu Mormonen hatten, noch wurden diese je gefragt. Logisch. Wer verstorben ist kann schlecht gefragt werden. Respekt vor dem Verstorbenen haben sie eh nicht. Die "Arbeit" wird einfach gemacht. Der Verstorbene kann sich spÃ¤ter ja frei entscheiden, ob er die "errettenden" Rituale annimmt oder nicht.

Einige der Ungefragten: David Ben Gurion, Mosche Dayan, Golda Meir, Theodor Hertzel, Anne Frank (mal wieder), Zacharias Frankel, Sigmund Freud und Albert Einstein.

Nun schrieb ich oben, Verstorbene kann man schlecht fragen, aber auch wenn sie noch leben, schert es sie einen Dreck. So wurde die "errettende Arbeit" durchaus fÃ¼r noch lebende Juden durchgefÃ¼hrt! Ooooops. So im Falle Marek Edelmann, dem AnfÃ¼hrer des sog. Warschauer Ghettoaufstandes unter der Nazi Besetzung im 2.WK. Oder auch Leopold Page, derjenige, der die Oskar Schindler Geschichte ans Tageslicht bracht. Dieser starb zwar vor einigen Wochen, die "Arbeit" wurde jedoch bereits 1990 "vollzogen." Ooooops. Wo war nur der bestÃ¤tigende und siegelnde Geist?

Aaron Breitbart, Forscher am Wiesenthal Center bringt es auf den Punkt wenn er sagt:

"... diese Menschen wurden geboren, lebten und starben als Juden. HÃ¤tten sie getauft werden wollen, so wÃ¤ren im Leben getauft worden. Man tauft sie nicht, wenn sie hilflos sind und nicht protestieren kÃ¶nnen."

"Man" nicht, Mormonen schon.

Nun hat das ganze natÃ¼rlich System. Bekannt ist ja auch die Episode, wo MormonenprÃ¤sident Wilford Woodruff dafÃ¼r sorgte, daÃŸ die z.B. die PrÃ¤sidenten und Unterzeichner der UnabhÃ¤ngikeitserklÃ¤rung der USA (die "besten Geister die Gott finden konnte", O-Ton Woodruff) die "errettenden" Rituale erhielten, selbstverstÃ¤ndlich nachdem sich diese samt und sonders in persona (klar, als "Geistwesen") bei Woodruff beschwert hatten. Die Beschwerde vollzog sich im St. George Tempel. Die Gentlemen "verlangten" zwei NÃ¤chte hintereinander den Vollzug der Rituale. Woodruff lieÃŸ sich zwar zweimal bitten, aber nicht dreimal. Laut Woddruff handelte es sich um Visionen und TrÃ¤ume. Ich trÃ¤ume auch gut.

Ach, ich vergaÃŸ es fast, natÃ¼rlich wurde damals die "errettende" Arbeit nicht (!) fÃ¼r die US-PrÃ¤sidenten Buchanen und Van Buren vollzogen. Die waren ja zu den Mormonen nicht lieb gewesen. Wo kommen sie denn da hin?

Quellen z.B. "Faith Precedes the Miracle", Spencer W. Kimball, SLC, 1975, S.44ff., Woodruff selbst in JD 19:229

Und da man so schÃ¶n dabei war, gleich noch andere "PersÃ¶nlichkeiten," (siehe Wilford Woodruff Journal, 7:369, 21-24 Aug. 1877) so z.B.:

Kolumbus, ja sogar Justus von Liebig, Schiller, Goethe, Alexander von Humboldt, Friedrich der Zweite, Byron, Sir Walter Scott, Thakeray, Wordsworth, Wesley, Livingstone I presume, u.a.(hip hip hooray fÃ¼r die britische Fraktion!!!) und Wellington. Nee, doch nicht. Kein Wellington, stattdessen Napoleon (boooooooh!!!). Klar. Wo doch schon Emma Smith Besucher des Smith Haushalts darauf hinwies, daÃŸ ihr holder Ehegatte (des Ã¶fteren durch die StraÃŸen Nauvoos und in Kirchenversammlungen in dunkelblauer Generalleutnant Uniform paradierend (it’s Generallieutenant Smith Sir, not Brother oder President Smith):

"At this moment Emma came in and Bro[ther] Phelps in continuation of the conversation said, "You must do as [Napoleon] Bonaparte did [and] have a little table, just large enough for yourself and your order thereon." Mrs Smith replied, "Mr. Smith is a bigger man than Bonaparte. He can never eat without his friends." I remarked, "That is the wisest thing I ever heard you say." (Scott H. Faulring, An American Prophet’s Record, SLC., 1989, S.438)

Mr. Smith ist grÃ¶ÃŸer wie Bonaparte! Nun denn. Und das Joseph diese Bemerkung die "weiseste" ist, die er je gehÃ¶rt hat, sprcih auch fÃ¼r sich. Superbonaparte Smith. Allez!!! Oder meinte er lediglich die Bemerkung, daÃŸ er nie ohne seine Freunde essen kÃ¶nne. Aber das wÃ¤re ja noch bl....

Die komplette Deseret News Nachricht:

"LDS plan to take more Jews off records

by Carrie A. Moore

Deseret News religion editor

Several prominent Jewish historical figures will be removed from the genealogical database of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at the request of a Los Angeles-based Jewish organization.
The Simon Wiesenthal Center has asked the church to remove the names of more than 200 Jews from its genealogical database after it was discovered that none of their descendants are Latter-day Saints.
Those on the list were apparently baptized posthumously by church members in temple rites that church members believe are saving ordinances that can be accepted or rejected by the dead in the afterlife.
Aaron Breitbart, a researcher with the Wiesenthal Center, said the list of names the church has agreed to remove from its records include Menachem Begin, former prime minister of Israel; David Ben Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister; military hero Moshe Dayan; former prime minister Golda Meir; Zionism founder Theodore Hertzel; Holocaust victim and autobiographer Anne Frank and several of her family members; Zacharias Frankel, father of the Conservative Jewish movement, and scientist Albert Einstein.
"In fact, some of them were still alive. People like Marek Edelman, leader of Warsaw ghetto uprising.
Also Leopold Page, the man who brought the story of Oskar Schindler to the world. He just died a few weeks ago, but they had him on their records from the early 1990s. He was still alive just until a few weeks ago."
Breitbart said the list includes "names they (the church) should have known were Jewish . . . these people were born, lived and died as Jews. Had they wanted to be baptized, they would have been baptized in life. One does not baptize them when they are helpless to protest."
He said some of those on the list "were baptized by proxy while they were still alive. We’ve got the documentation for all of these. . . . Some of them have been sealed while they were still alive. I would imagine that some very zealous, well-meaning member of the church saw a name of somebody to submit and save their souls."
LDS Church spokesman Dale Bills said the church’s agreement to remove the names is simply part of an ongoing effort to honor a 1995 agreement with several major Jewish organizations.
"As a result of a 1995 agreement between the church and various Jewish organizations, the church does not include the names of Jewish Holocaust victims on its genealogy databases unless submitted by a direct-line descendant. In compliance with that agreement, the names of hundreds of thousands of Jewish Holocaust victims have been removed from the church’s genealogy databases, a process requiring substantial research and effort.
"While the church counsels members to submit only names of direct-line ancestors, it cannot prevent individual members from again submitting names of Jewish Holocaust victims. When the church becomes aware this has occurred, the names are immediately removed. Whether or not the name of a Jewish Holocaust victim that reappears on the database was submitted by a direct-line descendant cannot be determined by a user-search of the online databases. It requires personal contact with the submitter.
"The church works diligently to maintain good-faith, cooperative relationships with a number of Jewish genealogical organizations. These relationships are amicable and mutually beneficial. Last summer the church presented a catalog of Jewish genealogical resources to the International Association of Jewish Genealogical Societies."
While some of the names on the list were Holocaust victims, others obviously were not, Breitbart said.
When asked about how the church handles the names of Jews who were not Holocaust victims, Bills said the church "willingly works with and welcomes the opportunity to resolve those concerns. What’s been given to us is part of that ongoing effort to resolve concerns as they arise."
Gary Mokotoff, publisher of Avotaynu, the International Review of Jewish Genealogy, a renowned Jewish genealogist, was heavily involved behind the scenes with the church’s 1995 agreement with Jewish organizations. When asked about the most recent list of names to be removed from church records, he said, "I’m guessing that people like Sigmund Freud and David Ben Gurion had been submitted before 1995, and no one asked their names to be removed" until now.
He said he doesn’t perceive the situation as a friction point between Jews and Latter-day Saints but "more like an unfortunate incident between friends. They (the church) are no longer doing this practice of extracting Jewish records."
Mokotoff, who is sponsoring a fall excursion to the LDS Family History Library for Jewish genealogists, said the two main databases at the library — the ancestral file and the International Genealogical Index — have "very little Jewish information" because they contain records submitted by LDS families on their ancestors, and few have Jewish heritage.
"But since they acquire records from all over the world, they have things that are extremely helpful to Jewish genealogy." More than 95 percent of Jewish Americans trace their ancestry to people who arrived in United States after 1881, he said."