Verfasser:	Nyu
Datum:	Freitag, den 12. März 2004, um 1:20 Uhr
Betrifft:	René Krywult - Letter from a Youth Pastor, Einladung zur Diskussion

Dieser Brief von René kann bei www.fairlds.org gefunden werden und ist eine Antwort von ihm auf einen Brief eines protestantischen Pastors für Jugendarbeit, der in seinem Brief einige aufrichtige Fragen stellt. René beantwortet diese Fragen genau so aufrichtig. Ich fand einge der Antworten von René ausgesprochen interessant.
In seinem Schriftwechsel mit René schreibt der Pastor, dass er nicht wünscht, dass seine direkten Fragen als Angriff auf die religiöse Würde des mormonischen Glaubens gewertet werden mögen. Wie ich finde, ein guter Vorsatz, an den man sich grundsätzlich und immer halten sollte. Dies als Einleitung.

Point by Point Response from René A. Krywult

All mails to the president of FAIR or to the webmaster are forwarded to an E-mail list of FAIR members (FAIR members are non-paid volunteers). Everyone on this list is free to answer. So, you may receive different answers form different members. The opinions I express are mine, and the Church and FAIR are not responsible for them. You are already aware, that - as in every church - not all beliefs are held by everyone. So take my notes with a grain of salt. I’m not the president of the Church, and I may not speak for the Church as a whole. Yet, I count myself as a faithful, True Blue Mormon in full communion with the Church. I’ve filled various callings, especially teaching callings, so my opinions are not just "worthless babble".

I think that it is an extremely good thing to let kids know what others believe. And it is very good to not want to misrepresent other people’s faith. Yet, I do believe, that your task is almost impossible. You will never know in all details what people of denomination X believe, until you yourself ARE of denomination X.

The best you can do is study that denomination/religion for some years, from a friendly perspective. Still, after years, you will not know it all.

I was a Roman Catholic before joining the Church, and I was a well-educated one. I believe that I could, at any time, prepare a sermon for a Catholic mass on any topic, and even the clergy would say that I did not misrepresent Catholic doctrine. I was one of them, and I studied hard.

I attended Lutheran religious education for pupils for six semesters, two fifty-minute lessons per week. I attended Lutheran Sunday services for quite some time. I’ve discussed religions questions both with Lutheran clergy and laity for the last six years, sometimes for hours a day. Yet, I would feel uncomfortable if I would be asked to tell someone else what Lutherans believe. I feel that I do not know enough for such a task.

Part of the problem is a language issue. Some key words have totally different meanings in Catholicism, Protestantism and Mormonism. The best example for this, IMHO, is Joseph Smith, when he characterized contemporary Trinitarian dogmas, which he rejected. If you study his words closely, you will see that he did not attack true Trinity doctrine, but Modalism! Don’t mistake me: He characterized what most laity of his day (and of our day, too!) believe to be "the Trinity". And Western Trinity since Augustine HAS some semi-Sabellianism in it. The unity is so much stressed, that it hardly leaves place for the three persons. Persons are reduced to mere relations. And for someone who didn’t study the idea, tritheism or modalism is a fairly well representation of folk beliefs on Western Trinity. Please keep also in mind, that Westerners in all those centuries did not understand why Eastern Orthodox Christianity objects so much to the "filioque." If it has been impossible for Catholics and Protestants to understand Oriental thought on God, how can a non-Mormon hope to represent what Mormons believe?

Then why not simply let the presentation be done by someone who is really knowledgeable both of Mormon doctrine AND the language of Protestantism? Let a Mormon do a presentation, then ask questions. If you let missionaries do the presentation, this COULD be a problem, since they do not understand Protestant language, and their job is only the communication of the BASICS of Mormon doctrine. But maybe we have someone at FAIR who lives in your vicinity, who would be ready to do it? Since I live in Austria, Europe, I won’t be able to come.

Mormonism differs from Protestantism in a significant way: Mormonism is not creedal. Mormon doctrine is what you can find in the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. What is not in there may be good and right, but it is not doctrine, until it didn’t make it into those books. Most of your questions have their foundation in the Journal of Discourses (JoD), a collection of sermons of early Church leaders. JoD is not more relevant to modern Mormon doctrine than the writings of the Early Church Fathers are relevant for modern Protestant doctrine.

The positive thing about this is that everyone is encouraged to study the scriptures, pray about them, and let the Holy Ghost explain to the reader what God wants him to believe, know and do. The goal is to have every single member be a prophet for his own area.

The negative thing is that Mormon theology is not systematized, sometimes seems contradictory, and getting to know the full truth is at least a lifetime endeavor. Therefore, in Church we focus on the first principles: faith, repentance, baptism, living faithfully.

My understanding at this point is that you believe that God was once a man who through time and perfecting Himself became a god. Is there one main God over all the other gods?

I’ll quote President Hinckley about this and Brigham Young later on. Pres Hinckley was asked:

Q: ...about that, God the Father was once a man as we were. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing. Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are? This is his answer:

A: I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it. I haven’t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don’t know. I don’t know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don’t know a lot about it and I don’t know that others know a lot about it.

That’s where Brigham Young comes in:

Many have tried to penetrate to the First Cause of all things; but it would be as easy for an ant to number the grains of sand on the earth. It is not for man, with his limited intelligence, to grasp eternity in his comprehension. There is an eternity of life, from which we were composed by the wisdom and skill of superior Beings. It would be as easy for a gnat to trace the history of man back to his origin as for man to fathom the First Cause of all things, lift the veil of eternity, and reveal the mysteries that have been sought after by philosophers from the beginning. What, then, should be the calling and duty of the children of men? Instead of inquiring after the origin of the Gods - instead of trying to explore the depths of eternities that have been, that are, and that will be, - instead of endeavoring to discover the boundaries of boundless space, let them seek to know the object of their present existence, and how to apply, in the most profitable manner for their mutual good and salvation, the intelligence they possess. Let them seek to know and thoroughly understand things within their reach, and to make themselves well acquainted with the object of their being here, by diligently seeking unto a superior Power for information, and by the careful study of the best books.

Joseph Smith was quoted on July 14, 1861 as saying that God was like us and is now the God of our planet. Does that mean that there are other gods of other planets and God is thus not all-powerful, the one, true God?

Joseph Smith died in 1844, so 1861 was 17 years after his death. That’s the cheap and easy answer. If you could give me the exact reference, I would try to look up the context, and then give you a more specific answer.

The unspecific answer is: There is no power that our Father in Heaven does not have. Does that mean that he alone has to have this power? No, for Jesus has overcome, Revelation tells us, and now sits with Him together on the throne, and every power the Father has, the Son has also. And not only that, but we are to be joint-heirs with Christ and receive all the Christ has, and have all power with Him.

The High priestly Prayer (John 17) can explain how this is possible without division of power. The disciples are to be one, as Jesus and the Father are one. And they shall be in Christ, as Christ is in the Father, and the Father is in Christ, and likewise shall he be in the disciples so that there is God in all, and all in God. Every god (i.e. everyone who is joint-heir with Christ) acts in complete union with God, the Father. They are all one. There is no division of power.

It also appears from Smith in April 1844 that Jesus was simply an ordinary man who became holy and therefore, became like God the Father. Is this accurate?

No! I think this question comes from a more severe misunderstanding of Mormon theology. Let me explain. Before our universe was created, the Children of God (the Father) lived with God. He is a person of spirit and body, his children were only spirits. Those spirits were not equal, but there were those who were more intelligent and more diligent, and there were those who were less. The most intelligent, the one who was more like the Father than anyone else, was he whom we now call Jesus. Aside from not having a body and not having the same experience, Jesus was like the Father. The Father gave Jesus and the Holy Ghost power over all His creation, because of their character. Together they form the Godhead. The Father told Jesus to create the universe with the aid of an angel called Michael. At the end of the creation time, Michael received a body and was to live a mortal life as Adam, the father of mankind. Adam fell, and he did not enjoy the presence of the Godhead anymore. From that time on, it was Jesus who acted the Father’s will over all the creation. Aside from very few instances (Christ’s baptism, on the mount of transfiguration, the vision of Stephan and Joseph Smith’s First Vision come to mind), it was Jesus who appeared to prophets, and with whom they interacted. This I would hardly call "an ordinary man".

When he was conceived by Mary, it was through the power of the Holy Ghost that Mary became pregnant with the only begotten of the Father in the flesh. He is the only man on earth who has God the Father as the father of his body.

Further, He was the only one who was able and actually did the atonement and the resurrection.

He alone lived a sinless life.

He was in constant communication with his Father during his mortal life.

That’s hardly what you’d call "an ordinary man".

Yet, He was able to sin, but chose not to do it. In this He was "just an ordinary man". He lived a mortal life, like all of us. He did the Father’s will, and thus overcame the world, just as we are told to overcome the world. Likewise, we have to do God’s will and overcome the World, though the power of faith and Christ’s atonement. In this way He is "one of us". If we overcome, we will sit with Him on God’s throne (Rev 3:21), and we will be like Him (1 John 3:1-3). He is the pattern of man, the "new man", the spiritual Adam. He is a kind of an archetype of what God wants mankind to be.

Is it accurate to believe that the LDS church claims that faithful followers can actually become gods of their own planets?

I cringe from this definition. We believe that we can become born (generated) Sons of God (John 1:12, 13). We believe that we can be like God (1 John 3:1-3). We can be partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4). We will be joint-heirs (Rom 8:17). We will have full union with the Father (John 17:11, 21-23). We will be above the angels (1 Cor 6:3). We will sit on God’s throne (Rev 3:21). In short, we will receive every power and every glory that God Himself has. What then? Will this be an end to God’s work? We don’t believe so. We believe that we then will continue God’s work. New universes will be created and inhabited, to further God’s glory and power. A good picture lies in the Eastern Orthodox marriage liturgy. Bride and bridegroom are crowned, and then told that the kingdom within the kingdom of God, which they start with this marriage, is to continue to eternity.

Did I misread the BoM that God made people dark skinned because they were evil and sinned against Him?

Yes, but you are not alone in this misreading.

Is it the belief that Jesus spent time in North America? If so, at what point?

That’s true. See Third Nephi in the Book of Mormon. Do you have one?

Is it accurate to state that the LDS believes that it is the only true Christian church and that other denominations (such as the Presbyterians) are apostate and will not be saved?

Yes and no. Do we believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living Church of God? Yes. It is the only church that has the Priesthood of God, and therefore the only organization that can perform baptisms, confirmations, marriages and other ordinations. It is the only church led by God through a prophet.

Do we believe that all Mormons are saved? No.

Do we believe that all non-Mormons will not be saved? Equally no! In fact, we take much time and effort to work for the salvation of those who have not received the benefit of the proper baptism in this world.

Do we believe that there is no truth in other denominations? Heavens, no! There are very good teachings, and very good people in other denominations!

Christ alone is the Judge, and only he can proclaim who is saved, and who is not!

What do you believe about someone in the days of Jesus’ earthly ministry, who had accepted Christ, but rejected the apostles? Do you believe he would be saved?

Also, there’s a different quality in the word "saved". We believe that almost everybody will be forgiven his sins. Therefore almost everybody will receive a place in a kingdom of glory. Even the murderer will, after the resurrection, receive something that is glorious beyond human comprehension. Yet he will always know that he had the opportunity to be given so much more, and that he has rejected it. This is his personal "hell," if you will, that he will have full knowledge of his guilt. It is not an outward punishment, but the punishment he gives himself, because he knows that he failed. Those who trusted in Christ, and who looked up to him for their salvation, and who worked out their salvation in Christ with fear and trembling, receive exaltation. They are the joint-heirs with Christ.

We believe that everyone who lives up to the belief and doctrine of his denomination will receive everything that his church promises him - possibly even far more.

Is it true that God the Father has a wife and a physical body?

Physical body: Yes.

A Wife: Many Mormons believe it, but there’s not much evidence for that in the scriptures.

Do Mormons still believe (as Smith taught) that Adam actually created the Earth?

See my answer above: Under the direction of Jesus. The Father is the architect and awarding authority/owner/constructor of the Creation, Jesus is the master builder, and Adam is the headman (or the worker). Who created the world? Was it the architect/awarding authority/owner/constructor? Was it the master builder? Was it the worker/headman? I for my part have never seen a building where they listed the worker as he who built the building. Likewise, I would not say Adam created the world. He helped. He did as he was commanded. But he did not plan nor oversee the work. It’s not "his".

Do you actually believe that God the Father had sexual relations with Mary?

No! But we do believe that Jesus is literally the son of God, the Father, in the flesh, and not the Son of the Holy Ghost. In Mormon thought, the miracle of his conception is necessary, so that Christ had power over life and death. He inherited this power from his immortal Father, just as he inherited the ability to die from his mortal mother.

Do you believe that Jesus married Mary and Martha and had sexual relations with them and had children?

This was widely believed, mainly because Celsus wrote that Christians believed it and were persecuted for it. The other reason is that for us to be exalted, marriage is necessary, and if Jesus is our example in all, it would be strange that He Himself was not married. But it is not doctrine.

Was Jesus the brother of the devil?

See above, to where you asked about Jesus just being an ordinary man. In the above pre-mortal scenario, one of the Sons of God was Lucifer. He took a very high position, but decided to fight against God and Jesus, because of his pride and envy. From being a Son of God, he became the Father of Lies. He is not more a brother of Jesus than you and me (Heb 2:11).

Do you believe that the blood of Christ is really not enough to save us?

Well, that’s hard to say. We need to accept the blood of Christ and ask God to apply it to us.

As Angelus Silesius wrote:

"Though Christ a thousand times in Bethlehem be born,
If He’s not born in thee thy soul is still forlorn.
The cross on Golgotha will never save thy soul,
The cross in thine own heart alone can make thee whole."

This does not deny the salvific act of Christ, but we have to accept it, believe in Him, receive the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth, and live faithfully. Only then will the blood of Christ be enough.

Do you believe in the Trinity (one true God in three persons)?

Do you mean the Eastern Orthodox Trinity, the Augustinian Trinity, the Thomian Trinity,...?

We believe that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three persons, each of them having a will of their own, and a history of their own, but they work together, Son and Holy Ghost submit their will to the Father, so that what He wills, they will also; they are one in heart, will, revelation and power.

Our views are more related to pre-Augustinian thoughts on trinity, though not always totally the same. I, for my part, found nothing in St. Gregory’s writing "On Not Three Gods" that I would disagree with.

As a friend of mine, Dr. David Trobisch of Bangor Theological Seminary (http://www.bts.edu/trobisch/default.htm) once said, "What I see in Mormon thoughts on the doctrine of trinity definitely has a place in modern Christian thought."

Do you believe in the full deity and humanity of the Christ, Jesus of Nazareth?

Yes, though we do not understand this in a Chalcedonian way.

I hope this is not appearing as some personal attack. Honestly, I want to know what you believe and share it with my kids. I don’t want to misrepresent you.

No, it was not an attack. But yet, misrepresent you will, because there is simply no chance that you get your facts right in, let’s say, the next five years. May I suggest you read How Wide the Divide before you try?

True, I do wish to discredit the LDS, but I don’t want to misquote your statements or beliefs. I will be sharing with our kids on Sunday the 22nd, so it is still about 10 days off. Thanks for your time.

Do you believe that I’d have a chance to learn all there is to tell my kids about Presbyterianism in 10 days, especially if I was antagonistic to it and had read antagonistic sources?

Generally, the questions you ask go to the mysteries, especially the unsolved mysteries, of Mormon faith. Wouldn’t it be better to first cover the basics? Maybe you’d like to ask the missionaries to give you the six discussions that give you all the basics? Tell them that you want to accurately know what Mormons believe, and that you have no intention to join the Church, and I think that they’ll help you.

Let me end this mail with an experience of a friend:

My friend Dr. David Trobisch sat in a meeting of European clergy (Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox), and the lecturer talked at length about Mormons. Suddenly an Orthodox jumped up left the meeting with the words, "I know a Mormon couple, and they live the most Christian life. I wanted to know more about what makes them so good people. That’s why I’m here. Instead, I hear the most outrageous lies about those decent people!" That made David, who knew some Mormons, think, and he decided to write a book about Mormons, in German. He took more than a year attending LDS meetings, taking the discussions, studying Mormon literature and interacting with Mormons in person and on the internet, both in the US and in Europe. He ends his book with the following words:

"We have arrived at the end of a journey. What impressions remain...? Joseph Smith himself remains a puzzle. The literary representations all too often just reflect back the personality and convictions of whoever wrote the descriptions of him. He appears variously as a charlatan, heretic, womanizer, puritan, Free Mason, reformer or saint. I have become firmly convinced that one can best interpret Joseph Smith’s revelations - independent of their meaning - as subjective experiences of God [Gotteserfahrungen], which are really not that unusual in the context of religious phenomena. When Joseph Smith speaks of appearances or voices, he did in fact see and hear that which he reported. How that all fit together, even he didn’t always understand. In the year of his death, Joseph Smith wrote the following about himself: ’I make no demands of anyone who does not believe my history. If I hadn’t experienced myself what I have experienced, I wouldn’t believe it myself.’"

After that, he was persona non grata for European counter-cultists and some of his peers. Be aware that this could also happen to you, if you avoid misrepresentations of Mormon beliefs.

A last word: You may want to get into contact with David Trobisch yourself. He is a fine guy, an outstanding scholar, and a true Christian, if I ever saw one. Write to him, and he will answer you (you may also ask him about my reputation, if you like).

If you have further questions, feel free to contact me directly, or send them to FAIR.

In Christ

René A. Krywult

Vienna, Austria, Europe

Ren̩ Krywult - Letter from a Youth Pastor, Einladung zur Diskussion РNyu, 12.3.04 um 1:20 Uhr
Apologetik, Würde, etc... – Renate, 12.3.04 um 19:46 Uhr
Apologeten sind Betrüger – Gunar, 24.3.04 um 2:12 Uhr
Ein Artikel ist in diesem Zusammenhang sehr interessant – Nyu, 24.3.04 um 10:02 Uhr
Nur wers glaubt fühlt sich selig – Gunar, 24.3.04 um 23:07 Uhr
Ach, ich weiss auch nicht – Nyu, 25.3.04 um 13:29 Uhr
Die Kunst des grossen Bildes – Nyu, 19.3.04 um 13:37 Uhr

Ach, ich weiss auch nicht – Nyu, 25.3.04 um 13:29 Uhr
Nur wers glaubt fühlt sich selig – Gunar, 24.3.04 um 23:07 Uhr
Ein Artikel ist in diesem Zusammenhang sehr interessant – Nyu, 24.3.04 um 10:02 Uhr
Apologeten sind Betrüger – Gunar, 24.3.04 um 2:12 Uhr
Die Kunst des grossen Bildes – Nyu, 19.3.04 um 13:37 Uhr

Mormonismus, Glaubensdoktrin, und die moderne Wissenschaft – Mykonos, 17.2.15 um 14:26 Uhr
Religiöse Kosmologien als Sinnverstärker und Apologetik – Utnapischtim, 16.2.15 um 20:04 Uhr
"Psychologie der Religionen" – Mykonos, 16.2.15 um 18:03 Uhr
U.a. von Religionspsychologie bis zur Archäogenetik... – Utnapischtim, 16.2.15 um 11:46 Uhr
Du meinst: There’s life in the old dog yet - oder: Totgesagte leben länger – Mykonos, 16.2.15 um 1:58 Uhr
Unsicherheit? – Utnapischtim, 15.2.15 um 15:35 Uhr
Agonie...? – Mykonos, 15.2.15 um 14:47 Uhr
Bald ist es soweit: "nächste Tage = 2 Monate" – Utnapischtim, 15.2.15 um 12:14 Uhr
Auch von mir: herzlichen Dank – shana, 3.1.15 um 22:12 Uhr
Facebook und Co – Sappho, 3.1.15 um 20:12 Uhr

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